Thursday, October 20, 2011

A conversation between myself and a believer...

I put his words in bold, mine in regular, enjoy:


John 14:6

Ezekiel 23:20

Romans 10:9

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
~Christopher Hitchens

Only Jesus Christ can wash away our sin and make us pure.
Jesus Christ, the son of God, loves us and stands as our substitute, taking the penalty of our sins upon himself so that we may be made righteous before God.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Isaiah 53:6.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,"
1 Peter 3:18.

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Revelation 1:5-6.

Illustration: If a person is being swept away in a flood and a helicopter appears overhead trailing a rope, the wise instinct is to grab the rope. If the person chooses to ignore the rope he disregards his opportunity for rescue.
So it is with our eternal salvation. Jesus Christ gave his life for us to purchase our redemption from sin. He rose again and offers eternal life to all who believe in him and commit themselves to him. Although available to all, salvation is not automatic. We must choose to receive Jesus' gift.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:12-13.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
~Steven Weinberg

GOD IS OMNIPOTENT (All powerful).
All of the power in the universe originated with and flows from God. He is the creator and sustainer of all matter and all life."Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:" Jeremiah 32:17.
See also: Genesis 1:1. , Genesis 1:2-25. , Genesis 1:26-31. , Genesis 18:14 , Psalm 8:3-4 , Psalm 145:15-16. , Isaiah 42:5 , Isaiah 45:18 , Jeremiah 10:10-12. , Jeremiah 27:5 , Romans 13:1 , Colossians 1:16-17 , Revelation 4:11.

GOD IS OMNIPRESENT (Everywhere present).
God is spirit. Being not bound by time nor space, God is everywhere present and aware. There is no place nor circumstance in the universe so far removed from God that it is beyond his attention. Jeremiah 23:23-24.
See also: Deuteronomy 4:39 , Psalm 139:7-12 , Proverbs 15:3.

GOD IS OMNISCIENT (All knowing).
God knows all things and understands all things perfectly. God is not subject to deception because he is everywhere present and aware. His judgement is perfect because his information is accurate. God's actions are perfect because they flow from his perfect judgement. One of my favorite illustrations is that of a human, standing on a street corner, watching a parade. He is aware of what has passed but can only anticipate what is yet to come. God, from his viewpoint, observes the entire parade of history, from beginning to end, all at once. Psalm 147:5.
See also: Psalm 139:1-3 , Proverbs 5:21 , Matthew 10:29-30 , Mark 4:22 , Luke 8:17 , Luke 12:2 , Romans 11:33-34.

We understand God's attitude toward us best when we examine our own feelings toward our children. We have a great love for them and a desire to provide for them, nurture them, protect and guide them, even when it is at great expense to ourselves. We wish everything good for them. The guidiance part of the relationship causes us to warn of danger and redirect their activity when they have not had enough experience to recognize peril. Matthew 7:9-11.
See also: Psalm 103:8 , Psalm 145:8-9 , Romans 8:38-39 , 1 Corinthians 2:9 , Ephesians 2:4-7 , 2 Peter 3:9.

God is Holy, perfect in righteousness. Since God created both the universe and mankind and determined the rules by which they interact, it is reasonable that God would know and do what is best in every situation. Righteousness is conformity to God's unerring will. Unrighteousness is rebellion against God's will and carries with it the unpleasant consequences which righteousness avoids. The holiness of God requires that rebellion not go unpunished. Deuteronomy 32:3-4.
See also: Job 34:10-12 , Psalm 89:11-14 , Psalm 145:17 , Zephaniah 3:5 , Revelation 16:5-7.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

The Gift of God

“For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Eternal life is a gift, complements of the Godhead, i.e., God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in this life is free, not even salvation. That’s right, not even salvation! Jesus paid a great price with His own precious blood. It is Jesus Who has the scars in His hands, feet, head, back and side. Jesus was beaten beyond recognition... “As many were astonied at thee; HIS VISAGE WAS SO MARRED more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men” (Isaiah 52:14).

Listen to the Prophetical Words of king David concerning Jesus Christ... “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all MY BONES: THEY LOOK AND STARE UPON ME. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture” (Psalm 22:16-18). Jesus' skin had been torn right off His bones. Perhaps this was from the cat-o-nine-tails whip (a whip with nine strands of leather, each with a piece of glass, rock or jagged metal at the end). Perhaps the bones Jesus spoke of were in His wrists, pulled apart by the nails and the weight of His body hanging on the cross. Most of the pictures of Jesus hanging on the cross show a little blood, but this is not accurate. Jesus must have been bathed in blood from head to toe, hanging naked upon the cross in shame for our sins.

The Roman soldiers ripped Jesus beard out, smote Him over the head repeatedly with a rod to drive the crown of sharp thorns into his scalp, He was physically beaten with their fists, stripped naked, spit upon, scourged with a whip and mocked. Jesus did this for us because He loves us so. Oh, yes my friend, Jesus paid a great price for your salvation. The gift of eternal life which is freely offered to us cost God a great price. I bid you, please do not say “no” to Jesus. The trifle sufferings of this life cannot be compared to the eternal damnation of those who die in their sins without Christ as Savior. Hell is forever. The sad thing is that no one needs to go to Hell, Jesus has paid the price.
Eternal Life is Offered as a FREE GIFT to All Humanity

Eternal life is a gift. Even though a gift is free, it MUST be accepted. If I buy someone a gift and place it under the Christmas tree, the gift will sit there until someone claims it. Jesus has purchased you a gift, it is sitting in Heaven with your name on it, but you MUST reach out by faith and receive it. If you don’t, then it will go unclaimed. Eternal life is a FREE gift from God... “But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification” (Romans 5:15,16). How much plainer could the Bible be concerning the gift of eternal life?

Let’s say you go out and buy me a nice gift. When you offer it to me, I open my wallet and try to pay you some money. You say, “no, no, it’s a gift!” I continue to try to pay you for your gift, but you refuse. This is no different than the person who seeks to impress God with their own self-righteousness. Eternal life is a gift my friend and there’s nothing you can do to buy it. If you try to earn it, then it is no longer a gift. You can observe the Seven Sacraments all you want, but it will avail you no good on Judgment Day. You had better receive the gift of God, so that Christ's righteousness will be imputed to your record. We need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

A Gift Has No Strings Attached

I have often used the illustration of a gift in Sunday School or while out soul-winning. If I offer you a gift, all you have to do is to REACH OUT AND TAKE IT. That is all you have to do and nothing more if it is truly a gift with no strings attached. Salvation is a gift with NO strings attached.

I once witnessed to an Islamic Muslim man who didn’t believe Jesus was ever crucified. I asked him, “Do you KNOW if you died today that you would go to Heaven?” He abruptly responded in amazement by saying, “How arrogant!” He said it was wicked arrogance for anyone to even think of claiming to “know” that they were going to Heaven. He believed that a person must win the favor of Allah by their own merit. He said that all we can do is our best and hope that Allah will be merciful. He has been deceived of the Devil.

First, the Bible says we can KNOW we’re saved in 1st John 5:13... “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life...”

Second, if the Muslims believed the Bible (which they don’t), they would KNOW that eternal life is a free gift. Every religion in the world can be categorized as either “DO” or “DONE!” Either you believe you must “DO” something to merit salvation OR else you believe Jesus did it all for you and it is “DONE.” The Muslims are following a “DO” religion; whereas, all true Christians are following the “DONE” religion. Jesus paid it all.

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
– Stephen Roberts


People do not like anybody, not even God, telling them what to do. One of the most popular songs of a recent generation was, "I did it my way."
God gave man the ability to receive instruction and then make a conscious determination whether or not to follow that instruction. The initial temptation had an external source, the serpent tempted Eve then Eve tempted Adam, yet Adam was all too willing to disregard God's specific instruction regarding the forbidden fruit.Genesis 2:15-17,Genesis 3:1-19.
Disobedience had immediate consequences: life on earth became more difficult, man's nature was permanently corrupted, (What parent has to teach a child, "Johnnie, this is how you tell a lie."?), the relationship between man and God was broken and spiritual death ensued. Note that man was already subject to physical death.Genesis 3:22-24.
When contemplating rebellion we usually think of someone doing terrible overt actions, but the most common formof rebellion is simply doing nothing. Avoiding contact with God so that we do not have to confront our unwillingness to do what we intellectually know is right but fear that it will be distasteful or contrary to our own plans.
Rebellion is universal. Jewish people have a problem with it,Isaiah 30:8-11,and so do the gentiles,Romans 1:18-32.
See also Romans 5:12,Romans 6:23,1 John 1:8.

Subject to Judgement.
We have all overheard weak parents threaten their children, "If you do not stop that I am going to...", "The next time you do that...", "I'm warning you...", but the predicted punishment never comes. Deep in our souls we know that the weak parent is doing a disservice to the child. Many people hope that God is like that parent, issuing stern warnings but never intending to enforce them. False assumption! The Apostle Peter warned, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9.God is merciful and loving, but he is also just. See Hebrews 9:27.,Psalm 9:7-8,Psalm 9:16-17,Psalm 98:9,Ecclesiastes 12:14

Unable to make himself righteous.
It is not possible for a person, by his own effort, to erase the sin nature or sins committed. As a physical example; suppose a person gets into a drunken fight and has his ear cut off. Later he mends his ways and never takes another drink. Does the reformation cause his ear to grow back? Likewise, subsequent good works cannot remove the consequences of prior sins.Romans 8:5-8.See also Romans 3:20,Galatians 2:15-16,Ephesians 2:8-9,Titus 3:5.

The Savior.
Justice demands punishment of sin. God is just - yet desirous of redeeming lost mankind. The answer is to provide a substitute. God, in the person of Jesus Christ, provided HIMSELF as the proper substitute, dying upon the cross, taking our sins upon himself, enduring the punishment for our sin. His resurrection is the seal that his offering was effective, purchasing for us forgiveness of sin and rebirth of the spiritual life which was lost at the fall.John 3:16.

Unfortunately for many, a gift purchased and offered is not necessarily a gift received. THE CATCH to all of this is that individuals must choose to accept God's gift. It is fully possible for a person to have such a bad attitude toward God that he rejects God's love and says to himself in effect, "I will not permit God to rule my life. I will do what I want, when I want, how I want. I will find an alternate way to Heaven which does not involve admitting guilt and submitting myself to God." Of course, he does not realize what he is saying. He rationalizes by comparing himself with his neighbors.(2 Cor. 10:12)

Upon which side of this choice do you find yourself?Do you believe that God, your creator, loves you and knows what is best for you? Do you believe that in his love for you God developed the only possible plan for your redemption from sin? Do you believe that Jesus Christ, God's Son, is the acceptable substitute and successfully accomplished the task of atoning for your sin? Then, if you have not already done so, choose to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior and commit yourself to him. Tell God about it. Remember, God knows your thoughts so you can communicate with him as if face to face. Admit to God your sinfulness and ask forgiveness. He will do so! Ask for strength as you take the scary step of yielding your life and future to his direction. He will guide and empower you.
The New Birth is an event. It does not gradually happen like dust collecting under a bed. I am concerned that many who have been raised in Christian homes and have attended church and heard Bible stories all of their lives, have never confronted the need to personally make the decision to invite Christ into their lives. Do you recall that event in your life? John 3:17-18
See also John 1:29,John 14:6,John 3:36,1 Corinthians 15:3-4,John 3:1-7,Revelation 3:20.

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
– Samuel Clemens

The GIFT of Eternal Life

By David J. Stewart

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." — Ephesians 2:8

What a precious Scripture! God couldn't be any planer in His Word... eternal life is a free GIFT from God. A "gift" means something acquired without compensation, i.e., you can't earn it. If a person were required to do anything to have eternal life, other than simply receive it, then it wouldn't be a gift. Romans 5:15 states...

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

And again in Romans 5:18 we read...

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

God freely offers eternal life to all mankind, to anyone who desires to have it, by faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that Jesus died upon the cross, shedding His blood for our sins (Colossians 1:20). He was then buried and rose again three days later (1st Corinthians 15:1-4). Jesus took His literal blood, ascended into Heaven, and applied it to the mercy seat in Heaven (Hebrews 9:12).

Jesus Paid for Everyone's Sins

Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind with His own precious literal blood. We read in 1st John 2:2 that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world...

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Jesus paid for the sins of all unbelievers, including false prophets who refuse to receive God's free gift of salvation...

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

How could anyone say that Jesus didn't die for everyone in view of such plain Scriptures? Calvinism is a false doctrine, and John Calvin was a heretic. Followers of John Calvin believe that Jesus only died for the saved; and not for unbelievers. However, the Word of God condemns such heretical teaching. According to the Bible, from the Scriptures we've read, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Thus, eternal life is a free gift that is available to anyone who wants it. Tragically, most people are sinful proud, and refuse to come to God by way of the Son of God. Jesus plainly stated in John 5:40...

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Jesus said "will not"; but He didn't say "cannot." You can be saved if you want to be; but you MUST come to God the father through Jesus Christ the Son...

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

We receive God's gift of gift of eternal by receiving Jesus Christ as our personal Savior...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

God Has An Unconditional Love for Mankind

John 3:16 tells us that God has an unconditional love for all mankind...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Only a misguided fool would dare claim that God doesn't love all people, sinners included. The truth is that we are ALL sinners (Romans 3:10,23). It's a good thing that God loves sinners, or else none of us could go to Heaven. God loves sinners; BUT, He does not love the sins they commit. God hates all sin. In fact, no one hates sin as much as God. We read in Hebrews 1:9 that Jesus hated iniquity. In John 2:15 we find Jesus extremely angry because of greedy men who had turned the church into a money-making business. In Psalm 97:10 the Bible instructs all believers who love the Lord to HATE EVIL. As believers we should hate sin; but love the sinner with an unconditional love. God's love is unconditional, i.e., God loved us enough to send His only begotten Son into this world to pay for our sins, knowing just how sinful we would one day be...

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Every Christian ought to have a hate life. I realize this goes contrary to the ecumenical compromise of our day that preaches love, love, love; but Psalm 97:10 tells us to hate evil. Psalm 94:16 asks...

"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"

If you think God is a big Teddy Bear Whose love surpasses His moral perfection and demand for justice, then you are woefully deceived! All Christ-rejecters will burn in the Lake of Fire...

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." —2nd Thessalonians 1:8

Do not be deceived, anyone who refuses to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, i.e., to BELIEVE on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sins, they will burn in Hell one day. Salvation is not a trifle matter, or a magical prayer, or a religious experience—it is when a guilty sinner (under the condemnation of God's Law, who deserves to burn in Hellfire) comes to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, believing solely upon the Savior to forgive their sins and save them.

Eternal Life CANNOT Be Earned

As simple as this Biblical truth is, religious groups everywhere today have perverted the simplicity which is in Christ. We read in 2nd Corinthians 11:3...

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Many religious denominations require their followers to perform good works, get baptized, keep sacraments, tithe, observe the Sabbath Day, forsake sins, pray, recite the Rosary, or partake of other religious practices to merit Heaven. These are all lies of the Devil. John 8:44 calls Satan a "liar" and the "father of all liars." There are many liars in the world today who teach the heresy of works salvation. This is in sharp contrast to the simple teaching from God's Word that eternal life is the gift of God. A gift cannot be earned. You don't have to be baptized or attend church services to go to Heaven. You simply need to believe on the Savior. No church died for you. No priest or minister bares the nail-scared hands and feet as does the Lord Jesus Christ. No religious organization died on the cross for you, nor would they be willing to. Ninety-nine percent of the religious groups in America today just want your money. Jesus asks for nothing. Eternal life is the gift of God.

It is simple to be saved—we are sinners and Jesus is the Savior. It's that simple. The important thing to always remember is that eternal life is a free gift from God, paid for by the precious literal blood of Jesus...

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

Romans 6:23 states...

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Amen! What a wonderful Scripture! Eternal life is a gift from God, made available to us through the literal blood of the precious Lord Jesus Christ.

Ah the snake-oil merchant peddling the promise of eternal life to the short-sited, neurotic mortals who can be seduced by the vacuous promise of eternal life. Eternal life would be no gift but arguably one of the most horrific tortures that could be laid on a sentient being. I mean sure, the first million years might be fun, but what about the next million...

and the billion after that...

and the trillion after that...

and you still have eternity after that.

This will never end, there will never be an end in sight.

Eternal life is merely the poorly thought out fiction of mortals who have gotten greedy. Eternal life would be a curse, without death there is no reason to do things, and this is how things would remain for eternity, and eternity after that, and eternity after that.

I strongly urge you to accept your mortality, do not let your fear of your inevitable death make you waste your only mortal life perusing phantasms and delusions. Look at yourself in the mirror, for billions of years those particles which are looking back at you have circulated in the universe but for a brief instance they have coalesced in you. Rejoice in the impressive instance to lay dissipate whence they came delighted that you are a spark of light in the universe. Life is so much more vibrant and vivid without Bronze age paranoid superstitions that cloud and contract the mind with some empty and undesirable promise that sparks can burn forever. For the radiance of the spark that burns boldly and brightly echoes through the halls of eternity. While the spark that neurotically fritters away might as well have never been.
Our time is finite, this gives our lives meaning, it gives our lives purpose, it gives our lives urgency. Live life today... SAVOR IT!



By David J. Stewart

Revelation 22:12, “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

This is a brief Biblical study on the subject of Rewards in Heaven. One may be surprised to learn that the Bible has much to say concerning rewards. I think it is well worth the study time and something that every believer needs to seriously take to heart.

This is not a study of salvation. Laying up treasures in Heaven by our own labors has nothing to do with going to Heaven. We are saved by Jesus' righteousness alone, and not by any self-righteousness on our part. Salvation is NOT a reward, it is the free gift of God.

A lot of people confuse the FRUIT of a changed life (which genuine repentance produces) verses the ROOT of salvation, which is simple childlike faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God. A man's faith is COUNTED for righteousness. Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” That is the simplicity that is in Christ. We are the SINNERS and Jesus is the SAVIOR.

As born-again believers God pleads with us to, “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Romans 12:1-2). Romans 12:1-2 is not a plan of salvation; but rather, tells us what God expects of believers, i.e., those who have rested in Christ's righteousness for the forgiveness of sins. We don't live for God to GET saved; we live for God because we ARE saved.

My greatest rewards in Heaven will be the souls saved, lives changed and Christians who were challenged to become aggressive soulwinners through my humble labors in the Lord. I am nothing; but Jesus is everything. God in His sovereign wisdom has chosen humanity as the vehicle by which to reach the souls of men with the Gospel. If we don't do it, it won't get done! Romans 10:14 ...and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Before entering into the truths found in this book, this author simply asks the reader to bow his head and pray, “Lord, teach me the truth about Rewards in Heaven.” May the Lord use this book as a part of His answer to your prayer.

Since the Bible and the church are obviously mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust them to tell us where we are going?

The Bible does tell us where we came from in the book of Genesis It tells us God created the earth. Since you and i weren't there it is best that we believe what God has to say to us in that book.
If you want more answers i suggest this website:

Have we moved past the siting quotes phase and are ready to actually discuss the matter at hand without?


Alright, so may I presume you believe Genesis is a word by word account of creation?

Of course it is.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Where does it say God created radiation signatures to make it appear as if the universe were billions of years old and created by a big bang? Either your diety is a liar himself or a prankster...

Oh, I thought we were out of that mindless quotation phase and could discuss this like rational adults.

Alright then, what is the dogma regarding the story that your god punished Adam and Eve for committing an evil act (eating from the tree of knowledge) an act they did prior to having the incite of good and evil? Seems like some kind of set up to me, how about you?

God knew that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree yes, but he still had a plan for them.

...a plan of misery and suffering.

Then what does he do? According to the fable, condemns people to eternal flames for an act committed generations prior, he let's thousands of years go by then self righteously sends "his son" to pay the punishment for the the acts HE instills in men's hearts but regards as abominable?
Gee what a guy, solved a problem HE created. A mafia kingpin would blush over these kind of tactics!

Christianity is in need of some serious fable revision...

How can you question what God does and how He does it? Did you create the universe? Do you think Lord Jesus should not be worshiped? He knows your mocking and your thoughts right now. Yet he puts up with you in the hope that you might read His word and understand it properly.

Who are you not to question such an outlandish story?

I find it hard to believe that an entity which you describe exists and if one did it would behave so childish and be so.... evil.

1 John 4:
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Psalm 66:
3 Say unto God, How TERRIBLE art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.
5 Come and see the works of God: he is TERRIBLE in his doing toward the children of men.

Psalm 76:
12 He shall cut off the spirit of princes: he is TERRIBLE to the kings of the earth.

Isaiah 13:
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the TERRIBLE.

God is good, it is the world that is evil.

Back to the quotes? Think for yourself for a moment! All the atrocities in the world; theft, murder, rape, even crimes committed against children pale in comparison to the hideousness of creating a single sentient being knowing that it could possibly choose to be tortured for forever and ever... and ever... and ever...
Take a moment and try to comprehend the malevolence required to perform such an act!

What would get a person sent there?

Merely choosing the the wrong religion from the plethora of religions on the planet! What has anyone done; dictators, mass murders, serial rapists, even other fictional villains don't come close to this form of sadism, not done once mind you, but BILLIONS of times over, with the omniscience that a portion of those created will indeed chose punishment

God sent His Son Jesus Christ:

John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Romans 10:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

It is easy to get saved so that you can go to Heaven. It is easy for me to preach to you too. It's your decision. Choose Jesus Christ as your Saviour or perish. I pray and hope that you will choose Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

None of those verses even come close to answering the quandary of your deity's evilness which I posed.

We Atheists choose to do good acts, give to charity, and live a life of respect because we recognize it as a benefit to society in itself and it makes us feel good. From your threats of perishing it would seem Christians only perform such deeds to escape a perceived punishment and be rewarded in an afterlife... which one do you think lives the life that Jesus preached?

God can do what He likes because He is God and you aren't

Ohhhhhh so absolute power corrupts absolutely eh? And that still makes it right?
YOU, according to the myth, have free will, YOU can choose between right and wrong... is solving a problem one created in the first place then demanding praise, right?

Here is an analogy: You are minding your own business, I walk up to you and bust you in the knee with a baseball bat. I run to your side, scoop you up, take you to the hospital in my own car, pay for your hospitals bills, pay for your physical therapy, I'm even there at your side as you learn to walk again.

Then I demand payment for all my time and trouble to get you healthy...

do you really owe me a dime?

This is what God says to you:

Isaiah 55:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my THOUGHTS are not your THOUGHTS, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my THOUGHTS than your THOUGHTS

You know, it's not really a discussion if you refuse to answer the questions I pose... it actually shows how weak your beliefs are.

"We Atheists choose to do good acts, give to charity, and live a life of respect because we recognize it as a benefit to society in itself and it makes us feel good. From your threats of perishing it would seem Christians only perform such deeds to escape a perceived punishment and be rewarded in an afterlife... which one do you think lives the life that Jesus preached?"

The Christian of course. Good deeds are not the means for salvation. You can only be saved through Jesus Christ. Saying to God that you do "good deeds" and deserve to go to Heaven without Jesus means you wont go to Heaven. Everyone before Salvation in Jesus is a sinner deserving punishment.

Trapped for eternity with folks who don't believe in doing good unless there is a reward/punishment sure doesn't sound like any "Heaven" to me.
Is god held to the same standards he holds others to? If he created us with all our faults he obviously should be held to account for that...

If you want to know what Heaven is like do a study of it in the Bible:

Revelation 21:

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Actually Adam and Eve had no faults until they sinned. It was the humans that sinned, not God.

The Bible also contends that the Earth is unmoving [1Chron. 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10], has edges [Job 37:3], corners [Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1], and rests on pillars [1 Sam. 2:8]. That the moon is a light source [Gen 1:16], some insects have four legs [Lev. 11:22-23], that bats are birds [Lev. 11:19, Deut. 14:11, 18], rabbits chew cud [Lev. 11:6], and that 4 legged mammals can fly [Lev. 11:21]!

Now I understand you might be prone to believe the last verse -- since you stated earlier that every word of the Bible is true, "Let God be true and every man a liar" as you put it -- but then you would also have to be gullible enough to believe in cockatrices [Jer. 8:17, Isa. 11:8 59:5], unicorns [Deut. 33:17, Psalms 22:21. 29:6, Job 39:9-10], satyrs [Isa. 34:14, 13:21], fiery and flying snakes [Num. 21:6, Isa. 14:29, 30:6]...

You can't trust the Bible against the knowledge you have now, you're really going to buy their malarky about what can't be proven?

It's all how you understand it. A cockatrice is a snake, a unicorn is a rhino, a satyr is a type of goat and flying snakes can all be explained somehow. I think your using another version of the Bible i have to check them verses in the King James Bible.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, so suddenly the Bible is open for interpretation and not to be taken literally as you had stated earlier when I asked and you replied "Of course it is. Let God be true and every man a liar."?
Need I remind you that all scripture is "flawless" [2 Sam 22:31, Psalm 12:6, 18:30, Proverbs 30:5] and inspired by God [2 Tim 3:16]?

"...flying snakes can all be explained somehow."
~ I got a real chuckle out of this.

How about the flat, unmoving Earth on Pillars... how do you interpret that other than the fact that is was written by a superstitious people with little understanding of science who ripped it off from a previous superstitious people with even less understanding of science.

There are videos on Youtube i have seen where astronauts have said that they have seen flying serpents in the sky, seriously. I know that the King James Bible i read is flawless and inspired by God. Show me where it says that the earth is flat and unmoving.

Sounds like someone from NASA slipped a little LSD in the Tang, provide a link to this silly video... you honestly believe that?!?!?!?!?

Here are the passages AGAIN [isn't copy and paste wonderful]:
the Earth is unmoving [1Chron. 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10], has edges [Job 37:3], corners [Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1], and rests on pillars [1 Sam. 2:8]. That the moon is a light source [Gen 1:16].

There is an explanation for everything. The moon is a light source as it reflects the sun. Remember that the English Bible was translated from Hebrew and ancient Greek. I will have to check them Bible verses could you not find an explanation for your questions through Google or any Christan site?

There IS an explanation for everything, but giving credit to the supernatural is lazy and intellectually dishonest.

An object that reflects is not a source... don't you think "God" would have known that when he told a sheepherder to write it down?

I'm not interested in other people's excuses, you are capable of thinking for yourself and not relying on hucksters selling their snake oil. What is YOUR reason for accepting these fairy tales as facts?
When you put some thought into what they are asking you to believe -- with no more evidence than it is true because they claim it's true -- you know that this stuff just doesn't make sense.

(King James Bible)

Genesis 1:
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

So there is nothing wrong here.

Job 37:
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
Not edges

Isaiah 11:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Revelation 7:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
So what if it says four corners of the earth, it is just a saying to mean the whole earth, and the earth could appear to have corners in the view of angels.

The earth is unmoving? What happens when there is a earthquake? the earth is moving. What happens without an earthquake? the earth is unmoving.

Throughout much of the world’s history, people thought that the world was flat. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed it was round. The Bible was right, people were wrong.

In former times, people did not understand that the earth "hung" in space. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed it did. The Bible was right, people were wrong.

In the past, science did not fully comprehend that the moon and stars had orbits, or established rules or ordinances. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed that they did. The Bible was right, science was wrong.
Jere 31:35-THE ORDINANCES (or decrees, or fixed order) OF THE MOON AND OF THE STARS.

The Bible further told, thousands of years ago, that planets existed.

In recent history, people have been misled by "science, falsely so called," into believing that evolution is how mankind came into being. Shortly, once again, people will be proven wrong, and the Bible shown to be true.
God’s Word is true. People would do well to take heed to what is written—to believe it and obey it.

(God’s established order)

It has recently been learned that the eagle could see very small objects from great distances. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible told of this.

Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand that even the wind has weight. Science is now aware that this is true. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.
Job 28:25-TO MAKE (or establish, or imparted) THE WEIGHT FOR (or of, or to) THE WINDS.

Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand that inside the earth is as it were fire. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.

Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand the evaporation process—how the rivers empty into the sea; the waters evaporate and are bound up in thick clouds, but the clouds are not ripped. Then, they are poured as rain upon the face of the earth again. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.

Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand the wind currents and how they whirl about in circuits all over the earth. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago. The Bible was right, people didn’t understand.

There are many peoples and nations throughout the world. The Bible explains how this came about: God has made all men from one blood. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.


Gen. 1 - there is a BIG problem here, the moon is not a light source and furthermore your "all-knowing" failed to mention stars ARE.

Job 37 - Where are these ends located? If I were to give you a table and said point at the ends you could very clearly do so, if I were to give you a ball and told you to do the same you would be in the same quandary as locating the ends of the Earth.

Is. 11 - You didn't have a response for this one, GOT YA!

Then you named a slue of verses not in question yet failed to cite the other 3 I specifically mentioned: 1 Chron. 16:30, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Sam. 2:8

If this book were really dictated by a perfect "god" then you wouldn't need to resort to such fallacies to defend it.

Is the realization that there is no great Father in the sky who watches over you that frightening, that you can't come to grips with it?

Genesis 1:
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
It does not matter that God did not mention the stars as a light source as it is obvious that they are. Like i said the moon reflects the sun so that it is a light also.

Isaiah 11:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
A corner can be round too!

1 Samuel 2:
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.


PIL'LAR, n. [L. pila, a pile, a pillar, a mortar and pestle. The L. pila denotes a heap, or things thrown, put or driven together.]

Literally, a pile or heap; hence,

1. A kind or irregular column round an insulate, but deviating from the proportions of a just column. Pillars are either too massive or too slender for regular architecture; they are not restricted to any rules, and their parts and proportions are arbitrary. A square pillar is a massive work, called also a pier or piedroit, serving to support arches. &c.

2. A supporter; that which sustains or upholds; that on which some superstructure rests. Gal.2.

3. A monument raised to commemorate any person or remarkable transaction.

And Jacob set a pillar on her grave. Gen.35. 2 Sam.18.

4. Something resembling a pillar; as a pillar of salt. Gen.19.

So a pillar of a cloud, a pillar of fire. Ex.13.

5. Foundation; support. Job.9.

6. In ships, a square or round timber fixed perpendicularly under the middle of the beams for supporting the decks.

7. In the manege, the center of the volta, ring or manege ground, around which a horse turns. There are also pillars on the circumference or side, placed at certain distances by two and two.

It could also refer to the pillars of the temple in Jerusalem.

None of your definitions explained why the Earth is set on pillars, you need to go back to your dictionary and look up what a "light source" is.

All this stuff are really oblique arguments though, the main plot is that this deity recreated itself (in the image of other, older religions), so it could be sacrificed (an action that IT demands), to itself, for reasons IT finds unappealing amongst IT's creations.

Would you say that about sums it up?

1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.

Pillars in Jerusalem perhaps? Figurative language? Just a way of speaking that would have understandable for Jews?

Your answer seems to have more questions than it clears.

We're really past that.

Why is it so hard for you to see that this religion, like all the others you reject, is nothing but mythology and folklore which is only aimed at keeping the masses content for the ruling class?

But what about our other word, "pillars"? In most cases where a pillar is referred to (as in a building) one of two words is used: matstebah or 'ammuwd. The latter word IS used by Job in reference to "pillars" of the earth and of heaven (9:6, 26:11) - but note the context of the verses:

Job 9:5-10 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger. Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south. Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.

Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

In both cases we are dealing with a situation that is charged with poetic indications (pillars that can be "astonished"?) and we are obliged not to read things too literally. (Same also, Ps. 75:3.) That leaves one verse, 1 Sam. 2:8 -

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

"Pillars" here is yet another word, matsuwq, and it is used only TWICE in the OT, here and 1 Sam. 14:5 --

The forefront of the one was situate northward over against Michmash, and the other southward over against Gibeah.

Here, it seems, there is no indication of physical pillars necessary at all (see also note on this verse above). At the very least the data is insufficient to decide one way or another. At the very worst it is simply a quote of the belief of Hannah, Eli's mother.

Read the rest of this:

Perhaps the author was busy avoiding one of those flying snakes therefore not having the time to choose his words more carefully?

But these words are supposedly inspired by an all knowing being and the only one of his kind, right? Instead of taking the time to tell man how slavery is wrong, wars shouldn't be waged, he could had named genocide as an abomination, taught early man about germs (which he conveniently put on the planet to kill millions before we would discover them, what a rascal, just full of gags!). Yet that is but the tip of the iceberg, he could had advanced man's technical knowledge in EVERY field for that matter instead of leaving us on our own to "evolve" our knowledge as if we were thrown here as a result of unintelligent design and are on our own in a world where every being must compete to survive.

No, instead he takes the time to supply basic agrarian info which was common knowledge amongst cultures of the time, demand a few laws and culinary restrictions which he didn't seem to care about before, demand the death of entire tribes of people, and spend the majority of the text narcissistically pounding his chest in competition with man's "imaginary gods" who, according to the fables, at least supplied man with fire [actually, I think we stole it] and got rid of the ice giants...

Yet it was God who created man and put him here in the first place. He can do whatever He wants to do.

Isaiah 55:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my THOUGHTS are not your THOUGHTS, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my THOUGHTS than your THOUGHTS.

Adam and Eve sinned in Paradise, it was mankind's fault that they entered into a world of suffering, yet God has provided a solution to the suffering to those that accept Lord Jesus as there Saviour. In the new heaven coming soon a Christian will experience no suffering.

... God already came on May 21st. (weren't you paying attention?) Macho Man Randy Savage was the only one worth taking.

I dont listen to false prophets

He wasn't saying anything different than your "genuine prophets" were saying all around the world... he just fell into the trap that many have [Mark 13:30, Matt 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32] and dated it.
Those guys aren't false prophets too, are they?

The Synoptics - the first 4 books of the King James Bible include the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you're implying that it was Jesus himself who was the false prophet?

Lord Jesus is Never a false prophet

So Mark, Matthew, and Luke were lying when they mention that Jesus said he would return in their generation [Mark 13:30, Matt 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32]?
It's one or the other...

Mark 13:
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


GENERA'TION, n. The act of begetting; procreation, as of animals.

1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.

2. A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation. Gen.15.16.

3. The people of the same period, or living at the same time.

O faithless and perverse generation. Luke 9.

4. Genealogy; a series of children or descendants from the same stock.

This is the book of the generations of Adam. Gen.5.

5. A family; a race.

6. Progeny; offspring.

Obviously Jesus was referring to 5

Hey, I really enjoyed the conversation, and I thank your for attempts to save my soul from the hellfires.

I liken it to this analogy:
If I honestly believed that you must toss a cheerio in the toilet before using it or a purple alligator would jump out and clamp onto you and didn't tell you -- even though I know it sounds outlandish, even though I know I have no evidence, even though I may look like a fool -- if I didn't tell, what would that say of me or how I thought of you.
Despite Christianity's misanthropic philosophy, you still have the kind, caring heart of an Atheist deep inside you!

Do you mind if I post our conversation to an Atheist group I like? Maybe your words will turn one of them?

I dont get much of a chance to talk to many atheists about my beliefs, many are closed hearted but you have been open to a degree, you can use this conversation as you like, i think what i said was right according to the Word, and God would be pleased with what i typed,

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