Ohhhhhh so absolute power corrupts absolutely eh? And that still makes it right?YOU, according to the myth, have free will, YOU can choose between right and wrong... is solving a problem one created in the first place then demanding praise, right?
Here is an analogy: You are minding your own business, I walk up to you and bust you in the knee with a baseball bat. I run to your side, scoop you up, take you to the hospital in my own car, pay for your hospitals bills, pay for your physical therapy, I'm even there at your side as you learn to walk again.
Then I demand payment for all my time and trouble to get you healthy...
do you really owe me a dime?
This is what God says to you:
Isaiah 55:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my THOUGHTS are not your THOUGHTS, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my THOUGHTS than your THOUGHTS
You know, it's not really a discussion if you refuse to answer the questions I pose... it actually shows how weak your beliefs are.
"We Atheists choose to do good acts, give to charity, and live a life of respect because we recognize it as a benefit to society in itself and it makes us feel good. From your threats of perishing it would seem Christians only perform such deeds to escape a perceived punishment and be rewarded in an afterlife... which one do you think lives the life that Jesus preached?"
The Christian of course. Good deeds are not the means for salvation. You can only be saved through Jesus Christ. Saying to God that you do "good deeds" and deserve to go to Heaven without Jesus means you wont go to Heaven. Everyone before Salvation in Jesus is a sinner deserving punishment.
Trapped for eternity with folks who don't believe in doing good unless there is a reward/punishment sure doesn't sound like any "Heaven" to me.
Is god held to the same standards he holds others to? If he created us with all our faults he obviously should be held to account for that...
If you want to know what Heaven is like do a study of it in the Bible:
Revelation 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Actually Adam and Eve had no faults until they sinned. It was the humans that sinned, not God.
The Bible also contends that the Earth is unmoving [1Chron. 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10], has edges [Job 37:3], corners [Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1], and rests on pillars [1 Sam. 2:8]. That the moon is a light source [Gen 1:16], some insects have four legs [Lev. 11:22-23], that bats are birds [Lev. 11:19, Deut. 14:11, 18], rabbits chew cud [Lev. 11:6], and that 4 legged mammals can fly [Lev. 11:21]!
Now I understand you might be prone to believe the last verse -- since you stated earlier that every word of the Bible is true, "Let God be true and every man a liar" as you put it -- but then you would also have to be gullible enough to believe in cockatrices [Jer. 8:17, Isa. 11:8 59:5], unicorns [Deut. 33:17, Psalms 22:21. 29:6, Job 39:9-10], satyrs [Isa. 34:14, 13:21], fiery and flying snakes [Num. 21:6, Isa. 14:29, 30:6]...
You can't trust the Bible against the knowledge you have now, you're really going to buy their malarky about what can't be proven?
It's all how you understand it. A cockatrice is a snake, a unicorn is a rhino, a satyr is a type of goat and flying snakes can all be explained somehow. I think your using another version of the Bible i have to check them verses in the King James Bible.
Ohhhhhhhhhh, so suddenly the Bible is open for interpretation and not to be taken literally as you had stated earlier when I asked and you replied "Of course it is. Let God be true and every man a liar."?
Need I remind you that all scripture is "flawless" [2 Sam 22:31, Psalm 12:6, 18:30, Proverbs 30:5] and inspired by God [2 Tim 3:16]?
"...flying snakes can all be explained somehow."
~ I got a real chuckle out of this.
How about the flat, unmoving Earth on Pillars... how do you interpret that other than the fact that is was written by a superstitious people with little understanding of science who ripped it off from a previous superstitious people with even less understanding of science.
There are videos on Youtube i have seen where astronauts have said that they have seen flying serpents in the sky, seriously. I know that the King James Bible i read is flawless and inspired by God. Show me where it says that the earth is flat and unmoving.
Sounds like someone from NASA slipped a little LSD in the Tang, provide a link to this silly video... you honestly believe that?!?!?!?!?
Here are the passages AGAIN [isn't copy and paste wonderful]:
the Earth is unmoving [1Chron. 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10], has edges [Job 37:3], corners [Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1], and rests on pillars [1 Sam. 2:8]. That the moon is a light source [Gen 1:16].
There is an explanation for everything. The moon is a light source as it reflects the sun. Remember that the English Bible was translated from Hebrew and ancient Greek. I will have to check them Bible verses could you not find an explanation for your questions through Google or any Christan site?
There IS an explanation for everything, but giving credit to the supernatural is lazy and intellectually dishonest.
An object that reflects is not a source... don't you think "God" would have known that when he told a sheepherder to write it down?
I'm not interested in other people's excuses, you are capable of thinking for yourself and not relying on hucksters selling their snake oil. What is YOUR reason for accepting these fairy tales as facts?
When you put some thought into what they are asking you to believe -- with no more evidence than it is true because they claim it's true -- you know that this stuff just doesn't make sense.
(King James Bible)
Genesis 1:
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
So there is nothing wrong here.
Job 37:
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
Not edges
Isaiah 11:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Revelation 7:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
So what if it says four corners of the earth, it is just a saying to mean the whole earth, and the earth could appear to have corners in the view of angels.
The earth is unmoving? What happens when there is a earthquake? the earth is moving. What happens without an earthquake? the earth is unmoving.
Throughout much of the world’s history, people thought that the world was flat. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed it was round. The Bible was right, people were wrong.
Isa 40:22-IT IS HE THAT SITTETH UPON THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH.
In former times, people did not understand that the earth "hung" in space. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed it did. The Bible was right, people were wrong.
Job 26:7-HE…HANGETH THE EARTH UPON NOTHING.
In the past, science did not fully comprehend that the moon and stars had orbits, or established rules or ordinances. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible showed that they did. The Bible was right, science was wrong.
Jere 31:35-THE ORDINANCES (or decrees, or fixed order) OF THE MOON AND OF THE STARS.
Job 38:33-KNOWEST THOU THE ORDINANCES (or fixed order) OF HEAVEN?
The Bible further told, thousands of years ago, that planets existed.
2 Ki 23:5-TO THE SUN, AND TO THE MOON, AND TO THE PLANETS, AND TO ALL THE HOST OF HEAVEN.
In recent history, people have been misled by "science, falsely so called," into believing that evolution is how mankind came into being. Shortly, once again, people will be proven wrong, and the Bible shown to be true.
It is written, to this age in which we are now living, Rev 3:14-AND UNTO THE ANGEL OF THE CHURCH OF THE LAODICEANS WRITE; THESE THINGS SAITH THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. Col 1:16-FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, THAT ARE IN HEAVEN, AND THAT ARE IN EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, WHETHER THEY BE THRONES, OR DOMINIONS, OR PRINCIPALITIES, OR POWERS: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM.
God’s Word is true. People would do well to take heed to what is written—to believe it and obey it.
2-BIBLICAL FACTS ABOUT NATURE NOW PROVEN TO BE TRUE
(God’s established order)
It has recently been learned that the eagle could see very small objects from great distances. Yet thousands of years ago, the Bible told of this.
Job 39:27,29-THE EAGLE…SHE SEEKETH THE PREY, AND HER EYES BEHOLD AFAR OFF.
Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand that even the wind has weight. Science is now aware that this is true. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.
Job 28:25-TO MAKE (or establish, or imparted) THE WEIGHT FOR (or of, or to) THE WINDS.
Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand that inside the earth is as it were fire. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.
Job 28:5-THE EARTH…UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.
Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand the evaporation process—how the rivers empty into the sea; the waters evaporate and are bound up in thick clouds, but the clouds are not ripped. Then, they are poured as rain upon the face of the earth again. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.
Ecc 1:7-ALL THE RIVERS RUN INTO THE SEA; YET THE SEA IS NOT FULL; UNTO THE PLACE FROM WHENCE THE RIVERS COME, THITHER THEY RETURN AGAIN.
Amos 5:8-HIM THAT…CALLETH FOR THE WATERS OF THE SEA, AND POURETH THEM OUT UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH: THE LORD IS HIS NAME.
Job 38:34-CANST THOU LIFT UP THY VOICE TO THE CLOUDS, THAT ABUNDANCE OF WATERS MAY COVER THEE?
Jere 51:16-WHEN HE UTTERETH HIS VOICE, THERE IS A MULTITUDE OF WATERS IN THE HEAVENS; AND HE CAUSETH THE VAPOURS TO ASCEND FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.
Job 26:8-HE BINDETH UP THE WATERS IN HIS THICK CLOUDS; AND THE CLOUD IS NOT RENT UNDER THEM.
Throughout much of the world’s history, people did not understand the wind currents and how they whirl about in circuits all over the earth. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago. The Bible was right, people didn’t understand.
Ecc 1:6-THE WIND GOETH TOWARD THE SOUTH, AND TURNETH ABOUT UNTO THE NORTH; IT WHIRLETH ABOUT CONTINUALLY, AND THE WIND RETURNETH AGAIN ACCORDING TO HIS CIRCUITS.
There are many peoples and nations throughout the world. The Bible explains how this came about: God has made all men from one blood. The Bible told of this thousands of years ago.
Acts 17:26-AND HATH MADE OF (or from) ONE BLOOD ALL NATIONS OF MEN FOR TO DWELL (or live) ON ALL THE FACE OF THE EARTH, AND HATH DETERMINED THE TIMES BEFORE APPOINTED, AND THE BOUNDS OF THEIR HABITATION.
From:
www.amazingbible.org
Gen. 1 - there is a BIG problem here, the moon is not a light source and furthermore your "all-knowing" failed to mention stars ARE.
Job 37 - Where are these ends located? If I were to give you a table and said point at the ends you could very clearly do so, if I were to give you a ball and told you to do the same you would be in the same quandary as locating the ends of the Earth.
Is. 11 - You didn't have a response for this one, GOT YA!
Then you named a slue of verses not in question yet failed to cite the other 3 I specifically mentioned: 1 Chron. 16:30, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Sam. 2:8
GOT YA, GOT YA, GOT YA!
If this book were really dictated by a perfect "god" then you wouldn't need to resort to such fallacies to defend it.
Is the realization that there is no great Father in the sky who watches over you that frightening, that you can't come to grips with it?
Genesis 1:
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
It does not matter that God did not mention the stars as a light source as it is obvious that they are. Like i said the moon reflects the sun so that it is a light also.
Isaiah 11:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
A corner can be round too!
1 Samuel 2:
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
pillar
PIL'LAR, n. [L. pila, a pile, a pillar, a mortar and pestle. The L. pila denotes a heap, or things thrown, put or driven together.]
Literally, a pile or heap; hence,
1. A kind or irregular column round an insulate, but deviating from the proportions of a just column. Pillars are either too massive or too slender for regular architecture; they are not restricted to any rules, and their parts and proportions are arbitrary. A square pillar is a massive work, called also a pier or piedroit, serving to support arches. &c.
2. A supporter; that which sustains or upholds; that on which some superstructure rests. Gal.2.
3. A monument raised to commemorate any person or remarkable transaction.
And Jacob set a pillar on her grave. Gen.35. 2 Sam.18.
4. Something resembling a pillar; as a pillar of salt. Gen.19.
So a pillar of a cloud, a pillar of fire. Ex.13.
5. Foundation; support. Job.9.
6. In ships, a square or round timber fixed perpendicularly under the middle of the beams for supporting the decks.
7. In the manege, the center of the volta, ring or manege ground, around which a horse turns. There are also pillars on the circumference or side, placed at certain distances by two and two.
It could also refer to the pillars of the temple in Jerusalem.
None of your definitions explained why the Earth is set on pillars, you need to go back to your dictionary and look up what a "light source" is.
All this stuff are really oblique arguments though, the main plot is that this deity recreated itself (in the image of other, older religions), so it could be sacrificed (an action that IT demands), to itself, for reasons IT finds unappealing amongst IT's creations.
Would you say that about sums it up?
1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
Pillars in Jerusalem perhaps? Figurative language? Just a way of speaking that would have understandable for Jews?
Your answer seems to have more questions than it clears.
We're really past that.
Why is it so hard for you to see that this religion, like all the others you reject, is nothing but mythology and folklore which is only aimed at keeping the masses content for the ruling class?
But what about our other word, "pillars"? In most cases where a pillar is referred to (as in a building) one of two words is used: matstebah or 'ammuwd. The latter word IS used by Job in reference to "pillars" of the earth and of heaven (9:6, 26:11) - but note the context of the verses:
Job 9:5-10 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger. Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south. Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
In both cases we are dealing with a situation that is charged with poetic indications (pillars that can be "astonished"?) and we are obliged not to read things too literally. (Same also, Ps. 75:3.) That leaves one verse, 1 Sam. 2:8 -
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
"Pillars" here is yet another word, matsuwq, and it is used only TWICE in the OT, here and 1 Sam. 14:5 --
The forefront of the one was situate northward over against Michmash, and the other southward over against Gibeah.
Here, it seems, there is no indication of physical pillars necessary at all (see also note on this verse above). At the very least the data is insufficient to decide one way or another. At the very worst it is simply a quote of the belief of Hannah, Eli's mother.
Read the rest of this:
http://www.tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html
Perhaps the author was busy avoiding one of those flying snakes therefore not having the time to choose his words more carefully?
But these words are supposedly inspired by an all knowing being and the only one of his kind, right? Instead of taking the time to tell man how slavery is wrong, wars shouldn't be waged, he could had named genocide as an abomination, taught early man about germs (which he conveniently put on the planet to kill millions before we would discover them, what a rascal, just full of gags!). Yet that is but the tip of the iceberg, he could had advanced man's technical knowledge in EVERY field for that matter instead of leaving us on our own to "evolve" our knowledge as if we were thrown here as a result of unintelligent design and are on our own in a world where every being must compete to survive.
No, instead he takes the time to supply basic agrarian info which was common knowledge amongst cultures of the time, demand a few laws and culinary restrictions which he didn't seem to care about before, demand the death of entire tribes of people, and spend the majority of the text narcissistically pounding his chest in competition with man's "imaginary gods" who, according to the fables, at least supplied man with fire [actually, I think we stole it] and got rid of the ice giants...
Yet it was God who created man and put him here in the first place. He can do whatever He wants to do.
Isaiah 55:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his THOUGHTS: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my THOUGHTS are not your THOUGHTS, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my THOUGHTS than your THOUGHTS.
Adam and Eve sinned in Paradise, it was mankind's fault that they entered into a world of suffering, yet God has provided a solution to the suffering to those that accept Lord Jesus as there Saviour. In the new heaven coming soon a Christian will experience no suffering.
... God already came on May 21st. (weren't you paying attention?) Macho Man Randy Savage was the only one worth taking.
I dont listen to false prophets
He wasn't saying anything different than your "genuine prophets" were saying all around the world... he just fell into the trap that many have [Mark 13:30, Matt 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32] and dated it.
Those guys aren't false prophets too, are they?
The Synoptics - the first 4 books of the King James Bible include the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So you're implying that it was Jesus himself who was the false prophet?
Lord Jesus is Never a false prophet
So Mark, Matthew, and Luke were lying when they mention that Jesus said he would return in their generation [Mark 13:30, Matt 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32]?
It's one or the other...
Mark 13:
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
generation
GENERA'TION, n. The act of begetting; procreation, as of animals.
1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.
2. A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation. Gen.15.16.
3. The people of the same period, or living at the same time.
O faithless and perverse generation. Luke 9.
4. Genealogy; a series of children or descendants from the same stock.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. Gen.5.
5. A family; a race.
6. Progeny; offspring.
Obviously Jesus was referring to 5
Hey, I really enjoyed the conversation, and I thank your for attempts to save my soul from the hellfires.
I liken it to this analogy:
If I honestly believed that you must toss a cheerio in the toilet before using it or a purple alligator would jump out and clamp onto you and didn't tell you -- even though I know it sounds outlandish, even though I know I have no evidence, even though I may look like a fool -- if I didn't tell, what would that say of me or how I thought of you.
Despite Christianity's misanthropic philosophy, you still have the kind, caring heart of an Atheist deep inside you!
Do you mind if I post our conversation to an Atheist group I like? Maybe your words will turn one of them?
I dont get much of a chance to talk to many atheists about my beliefs, many are closed hearted but you have been open to a degree, you can use this conversation as you like, i think what i said was right according to the Word, and God would be pleased with what i typed,
Blessings,
Servant
